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Now I asked Ebbe Linden if Sansar would use subsances he came back saying yes, then he retracted that saying they would be using 'substance like tech' and not allegorithmic substances!

Now to me this is a no brainer, why on earth would LL not want to use allegorithmic substances??

Maybe the $40,000 price tag but thats not a lot realy!

Also if all sales in Sansar are gonna be 'taxed' does that mean tip jars too^^

I hope LL realise without clubs sl would have died years ago and I dont think tax on tip jars will work!

how will LL differentiate between vendors and tip jars in Sansar?

I think a lot of people that are getting excited about Sansar are in for a very big disapointment, but...

I know of at least two other virtual worlds that are in the making right now ^^

One of those I am a content a content partner of!

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The problem is that too many have the idea that Sansar (or whatever it ends up being called) is going to be Second Life with all the problems fixed. It's not. It's a totally different platform. Comparing Sansar to SL is like comparing Half-Life and Resident Evil games. Some similarities but 2 different games. If you have this idea that It's going to be SL improved, think again.

From what has been said, it's going to have a totally different model for payment, for one. 

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I don't have a good feeling about Sansar. Ebbe says, Second Life but better, but that can't happen without clubs, without homes, without places to go. And the avatar better be a “GOOD MODIFIABLE MESH” avatar from the get-go or just like each of the other things, it will be DOA. And no, I will not purchase my avatar, I have not in SL and I will not in Sansar.

But... I'm actually looking forward to Sansar, but it will need to have most of what Second Life has or it will have a very tough time just getting started, that's how I see it any how.

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I'm not sure why Sansar's success depends at all on SL-like clubs, of all things.

There's no assumption that anybody from Second Life will migrate to Sansar. Certainly, its success doesn't depend on that -- so few SL residents remain now that we'd be rounding error in the numbers they hope to attract to Sansar.

I've been pretty negative on Sansar in the past, but across the street there's a recent post by the great Ciaran Laval, citing a Linden interview inTom's Hardware that LL is building a whole new rendering engine from the ground up, and describing Sansar's in-world tools as the ne plus ultra for content creation in the platform.  If import of external models is just a stop-gap / fallback, this could get interesting again for the first time since they invented the box.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

I'm not sure why Sansar's success depends at all on SL-like clubs, of all things.

There's no assumption that anybody from Second Life will migrate to Sansar. Certainly, its success doesn't depend on that -- so few SL residents remain now that we'd be rounding error in the numbers they hope to attract to Sansar.

I've been pretty negative on Sansar in the past, but across the street there's a recent post by the great Ciaran Laval, citing a Linden interview inTom's Hardware that LL is building a whole new rendering engine from the ground up, and describing Sansar's in-world tools as the 
ne plus ultra
 for content creation in the platform.  If import of external models is just a stop-gap / fallback, this could get interesting again for the first time since they invented the box.

That does sound interesting, though I have wondered if catering to the sorts of people that haunt this place might not be the kiss of death for a new one.

;-).

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Linden Lab makes its monies running server farms (they call it selling land), and the microtransactions from its currency exchange. (I'd lump the monies from premiums as part of their server farm scheme). Sansar is just a means for those pesky Linden's to horn in on the very vast SL economy, that great big cookie jar,  that it doesnt currently have its greedy littly paws in. Hehehehehe the whole lessening the barriers to content creation by lessening the price of land is just more Linden smoke and mirrors. LL, champion GOMERS, are trying to horn in on their "creator's classes'" profits and pick the pockets of consumers once the producers pass onlong the cost of doing biness in Sansar off to their customers.

As for virtual reality being the next big thing, better rendering, cheaper land hell I'd rather just keep my Juro Kothari custom caws The Golden Age of Content Creation is over. What sap gonna equal The Dawson Residence. It's been 10 years shice Juro started it and nothing better's been built with prims sculptie or mesh hehehehehe

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So how is this different than RL with goverments taxing producers and consumers? 

You and a lot of other people forget that LL is a for profit business not a charity.  We have so much freedom in SL that people labor under the delusion that the grid is 'theirs' like some type of commune.  There is nothing wrong with making a reasonable profit.  If a reasonable profit isn't forthcoming, then they'll pull the plug and these folks will find out how wrong they were.

If LL is going to "horn in" as you say on creator profits they will still have to make it worth a creators time and effort or creators won't participate, and LL is stuck with an empty world and a big fail.

 

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

I know of at least two other virtual worlds that are in the making right now ^^

One of those I am a content a content partner of!

if the world is the one that is owned by one of the most innovative barons and content creators ever in the early days of SL who just recent asked for content creators who might be interested in signng on then yes

they are serious contenders are that crew

LL is going to really have to lift their own game with Sansar (and SL even) now that crew is also in the game

 

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I am not sure LL even know what sansar will be, at the start when the news  was 'leaked' Ebbe said he hoped everyone in SL would want to move over to the new grid, later as time went on he changed his tone and then sansar's blueprint became different some how.

Residents from SL won't want to move to a grid that is not SL but better, beause they like SL if they didn't they would not be in SL to begin with.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

So how is this different than RL with goverments taxing producers and consumers? 

You and a lot of other people forget that LL is a for profit business not a charity.  We have so much freedom in SL that people labor under the delusion that the grid is 'theirs' like some type of commune.  There is nothing wrong with making a reasonable profit.  If a reasonable profit isn't forthcoming, then they'll pull the plug and these folks will find out how wrong they were.

If LL is going to "horn in" as you say on creator profits they will still have to make it worth a creators time and effort or creators won't participate, and LL is stuck with an empty world and a big fail.

 

Wait a minute... you understood what Jumpy was saying?  You deserve a prize.

...Dres

 
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If a resident of a world is just a 'user' they will want some thing to do!

i.e games, rp, clubs, special events or education etc

There the main ones i can think of, if you look in SL the main ones from that group are RP and Clubs, so in a grid with little of those, people are not going to buy products because they will get bored and leave

The other thing will be content pricing if merchnts pay extra 'taxes' the price will just go up I can well expect content to be 3 times the price if is in SL if not more.

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irihapeti wrote:


Phoebe Avro wrote:

I know of at least two other virtual worlds that are in the making right now ^^

One of those I am a content a content partner of!

if the world is the one that is owned by one of the most innovative barons and content creators ever in the early days of SL who just recent asked for content creators who might be interested in signng on then yes

they are serious contenders are that crew

LL is going to really have to lift their own game with Sansar (and SL even) now that crew is also in the game

 

What? I have not heard anything about a world owned by an early content creator.

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I think that LL take a rather large slice of the pie right now in SL, a $1000 to put a new region online lol, I can rent a whole hardware server capable of running at least 8 regions for half the cost of renting a region in SL with no setup fee.

While LL do have other running costs remember LL now have many more regions per server than they used to, on servers that use less power.

I am sure the bean counters at LL will work it so LL get a bigger slice of the Sansar pie.

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

If a resident of a world is just a 'user' they will want some thing to do!

i.e games, rp, clubs, special events or education etc

There the main ones i can think of, if you look in SL the main ones from that group are RP and Clubs, so in a grid with little of those, people are not going to buy products because they will get bored and leave

The other thing will be content pricing if merchnts pay extra 'taxes' the price will just go up I can well expect content to be 3 times the price if is in SL if not more.

Sansar users ("residents", whatever) will want something to do, sure, but there are all sorts of games much more successful than SL that don't have SL-like "clubs" -- and they do just fine selling virtual content, too. Not so much user-generated content, granted, but I don't really think that has much to do with clubs, except for a certain kind of avatar outfit, some dance animations, and some special-purpose club equipment.

Again, Sansar doesn't target current SL users any more than it does users of, say, Minecraft, or whatever PewDiePie is playing at the moment. The fact that some SL users spend a lot of their time in clubs doesn't mean Sansar needs any clubs at all.

And yet there's no reason to think Sansar won't have some clubs, if anybody wants them. In particular, whence comes "3 times the price... if not more" ? The current Marketplace fee is already 5% (plus cashing-out fees if applicable); a very common rate for online content is 30% and it would be surprising if LL went higher than that. Why would anything treble in price?

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Pamela Galli wrote:


irihapeti wrote:


Phoebe Avro wrote:

I know of at least two other virtual worlds that are in the making right now ^^

One of those I am a content a content partner of!

if the world is the one that is owned by one of the most innovative barons and content creators ever in the early days of SL who just recent asked for content creators who might be interested in signng on then yes

they are serious contenders are that crew

LL is going to really have to lift their own game with Sansar (and SL even) now that crew is also in the game

 

What? I have not heard anything about a world owned by an early content creator.

And I suppose you'll seriously contend that you do not believe in the boogieman... you fool!!!

...Dres

 
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The prices will be more expensive due to it will all be new content, in sl people have to compete price wise with older content that still looks good but has been discounted over time, when i first came to SL i would say things were 3 times what they are now on many items.

The other reason is the sales tax Ebbe has mentioned several times, if LL drop land rental costing a lot they are going to want to get that money back through taxes that will add greatly to the cost of content.

But we will see.

Also, we don't even know what Sansar will be since LL have basically said zero about it, its all tbd

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Look at the "tax" this way. In SL, the current structure is we pay premium and get a discount on land tier or you rent from private sim owners. If you have the money, you can usually get a full sim for $300 USD or so unless you want a new one, then it's $1000 USD. However,,,there are many in SL that don't own land or have a "home". They purchase items from content creators but are basically nomads. The only money they contribute towards upkeep is the tiny fees for purchasing Lindens. Content creators contribute with upload fees and the fees they pay if they are lucky enough to make enough money to actually cash out.

My understanding is that you'll be paying a nomiinal fee per year for your "land" but the structure will be different. When you purchase anything in Sanar, you'll be paying a small percentage to LL, much like you pay sales tax. It won't be deducted from the sale price like MP is current as that would put the cost on content creators. At least with everyone paying the "tax" when they purchase something, those that use the service will be helping to pay for it rather than the structure SL provides that many, between freebies, hunts, etc., never contribute a penny to SL maintenance.

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

It won't be deducted from the sale price like MP is current as that would put the cost on content creators. 

It doesn't matter. A fee or "tax" has exactly the same effect whether it's deducted from the sales price or added to it. (That's true of a free market, where the seller can set their own prices; in an economy where the price is dictated, then it would matter.)

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

The prices will be more expensive due to it will all be new content...

Oh, that's certainly true. It's true in SL, right now, with Mesh-based content still commanding a premium over everything else, and was always thus. I remember when anything with a flexi prim could bring two or three times it's pre-flexi equivalent, back when flexis were the new hotness.

I'd mistaken the claim to be that the new content-transaction "tax" would by itself contribute a huge increase in prices. As I mentioned, that will only be maybe an additional 25% at most -- and very likely much less, both because the rate may not be as high as 30%, and the reduced cost of owning an in-world store, necessary for displaying many kinds of content.

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Qie Niangao wrote:


Phoebe Avro wrote:

If a resident of a world is just a 'user' they will want some thing to do!

i.e games, rp, clubs, special events or education etc

There the main ones i can think of, if you look in SL the main ones from that group are RP and Clubs, so in a grid with little of those, people are not going to buy products because they will get bored and leave

The other thing will be content pricing if merchnts pay extra 'taxes' the price will just go up I can well expect content to be 3 times the price if is in SL if not more.

Sansar users ("residents", whatever) will want something to do, sure, but there are all sorts of games much more successful than SL that don't have SL-like "clubs" -- and they do just fine selling virtual content, too. Not so much user-generated content, granted, but I don't really think that has much to do with clubs, except for a certain kind of avatar outfit, some dance animations, and some special-purpose club equipment.

Again, Sansar doesn't target current SL users any more than it does users of, say, Minecraft, or whatever PewDiePie is playing at the moment. The fact that some SL users spend a lot of their time in clubs doesn't mean Sansar needs any clubs at all.

And yet there's no reason to think Sansar won't have some clubs, if anybody wants them. In particular, whence comes "3 times the price... if not more" ? The current Marketplace fee is already 5% (plus cashing-out fees if applicable); a very common rate for online content is 30% and it would be surprising if LL went higher than that. Why would anything treble in price?

LL would be commiting suicide if they went more than 30 percent. It's not the Sl community that they're trying to pull in with Sansar... it's the rest of the game creators.  And those game creators will not conduct business with a company that stupidly charges more than 30 percent... regardless of what other suposedly fabulous options they present.

Make no mistake, Sansar is being targeted at game creators... current SL users be damned.

Sansar is not SL 2 and will never be.  From what I can see, I believe that LL is trying to create a gaming platform.  A place where developers can create games and deploy them without having to create the infrastructure needed with most MMO's.  A cool concept, but not one that most current SL users would care about.

...Dres

 

 
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Qie Niangao wrote:


Phoebe Avro wrote:

The prices will be more expensive due to it will all be new content...

Oh, that's certainly true. It's true in SL, right now, with Mesh-based content still commanding a premium over everything else, and was always thus. I remember when anything with a flexi prim could bring two or three times it's pre-flexi equivalent, back when flexis were the new hotness.

I'd mistaken the claim to be that the new content-transaction "tax" would by itself contribute a huge increase in prices. As I mentioned, that will only be maybe an additional 25% at most -- and very likely much less, both because the rate may not be as high as 30%, and the reduced cost of owning an in-world store, necessary for displaying many kinds of content.

Mesh has played a large part in driving all prices down. It may command a premium over sculpts or prims, but SL is awash in mesh that has been imported from 3D sites, much of it illegally. Before mesh, content had to be made specifically for SL -- there was no huge inventory of prim or sculpt content sitting out there ready for import, as there is mesh. 

(Freebies have also driven prices down -- eg skin prices, after Eloh Elliot released her skin files full perm, plummeted. And open sourcing the viewer has played a part, as ripper viewers allowed anyone to copy and release anything full perm.

Original content creators who do not use templates or sell the imported the work of others, cannot produce content at the same rate as those who do.)

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

'Sansar is not SL 2 and will never be.  From what I can see, I believe that LL is trying to create a gaming platform.  A place where developers can create games and deploy them without having to create the infrastructure needed with most MMO's.'

 

Some thing like Entropia Platform

I apologise for not knowing what Entropia is, what I said was based on my interpretation of what Ebbe has said about LL's new platform. I shall Google Entropia and look further into it.

...Dres

 
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Fair enough and I actually agree with you. It's not the tax as such that I disagree with. Rather having to pay the tax NOT to support SL 2.0 but rather to support LL swashbuckling adventures into "cutting edge" technologies that's doomed to fail. LL is successful in the virtual world business because of SL but SL residents don't seem to be The Lab's target market. Who is? I unno. Will they adopt it over other platforms and options maybe maybe not. I'm just haunted by the spectre of Sansar failing and SL 1.0 being stuck with a new wonderful idea, namely adopting Sansar's tax in SL to mitigate the labs losses, to obviate its misadventures in virtual reality. Crap I gotta type heheheheheh or sumfin b4 yall forget it's MEEEEEEEE! :P

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