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The Taxman Cometh: Sansar's Package Deal


Jumpman Lane
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I unno, I'm just a Lil' Lane; but doesn't this whole Sansar deal seem just a little bit fishy? Second Life 2.0 SEEMS to offer SL Residents what they been BEGGING for, for years: better rendering, scalability, LESS LAG. Those pesky Lindens are tossing in cheap land to boot. Nevermind virtual reality. That's just shining up a turd. Them server farmers aint counting on a massive influx of NERDS facinated with a marginal technology to keep The Lab afloat. They are counting on MICRO-TRANSACTIONS (along with server farming-they call it The Land Business) to keep The lab in the black.

LL been around 12 YEARS grabbing a penny here and there on every purchase and sale of currency. They shutdown the independent CURRENCY EXCHANGES to eliminate the competition. They gommed Xstreet and bought out the competition getting pennies on every sale of goods outworld, online. Now they want to grab a few pennies on EVERY INWORLD sale of ANYTHING.

Don't be fooled by the idea of cheaper land either. They'll make that up in volume by having more residents paying tier (possibly even shunting more free users into premium accounts).

Is all the fuss and fanfare of Sansar, just a pesky way of implementing The Lab's new tax on every purchase made in Second Life. If Linden Lab announced such a tax TOMORROW, without the smoke and mirrors of Sansar would it sit well with residents?

I unno. Yet, if Sansar succeeds Linden Lab will have a CLEAN finger in the pie of Second Life's economy-a new revenue stream. If Sansar fails, THAT TAX will remain. Those pesky Lindens will STILL eat pie...and Ebbe's sittin' pretty fulla win!  

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Jumpy, the irs made LL kill the L$ resellers.   not much the lab could of done there.    biggest problem was,  it's maybe on the forum still was the bitcoiners coming in and exchanging massive amounts of bitcoin for L$ then cashing it out.   guess somebody was not paying much attention as the irs caught wind of it and then some rules changed and such things.   :/ 

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Jumpman Lane wrote:

Don't be fooled by the idea of cheaper land either. They'll make that up in volume by having more residents paying tier (possibly even shunting more free users into premium accounts).

Jumpy, I think you're wrong about this part. As you say, Second Life has always subsidized (almost) every other aspect of the world from proceeds of the Land product. The exceptions being LindeX cash-out fees, which probably make the microtransaction exchange pay for itself, plus Supply's outright sale of L$s to maintain a fixed exchange rate, which generates some net profit -- although probably very little, and only rarely at this point. The current paltry Marketplace fees aren't much of an exception -- they're about enough to keep the Marketplace site online with a Linden or two in charge of operating it. So Land is really paying the SL bills -- and server and bandwidth costs are probably about half the costs -- maybe less now as they consolidated on cheaper hardware -- with a huge share going to personnel expenses.

If they were to shift even just part of the burden from Land to Commerce, the SL economy would likely be very different. As best I can tell from their pronouncements, though, it appears that basic, private sandbox quality space will be too cheap to meter in Sansar, and fees will only start when transactions start happening in a space. That may prove too optimistic, but they do seem intent on a major shift.

Nothing guarantees the shift will have altogether positive effect, though, which I guess was what you were saying, too. Still, the Land-only model has its limits, as we've seen, so trying something else makes sense. They could have tried that in SL, too, but some risk of upsetting the virtual apple cart, and then they couldn't afford development of another product.

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I agree Qie. The gamble on cheapening the price is Linden Lab's though. Not mine. If, I'm right they make money on cheap land by increasing the volume from those paying tier and premium accounts. If not, they raise land prices and survive, or don't and Sansar fails.

The point is, their MAIN revunue stream IS land. (Thank you for clarifying that fact even more for me by pointing out the relative UNPROFITABILITY of the Marketplace and the currency exchange. They are admittedly small potatoes). Selling server space is The Lab's bread and butter and there is SL's vast GNP vast sums of monies changing hand's on their platform as yet NOT part of LL's revenue stream, easily GOMMED by LL decree.

Do I blame those pesky Lindens? NO! I've always made my stand on the side of Linden Lab. So, again we agree. I'm all FOR LL creating new revenue streams. Wanna make a new tax? Make it. Do whatever needs doing to keep the severs up.

What I don't want is more "shining up a turd" and calling it progress. They've been talking about better rendering, more scalability, etc.. for YEARS. If Sansar will bring all that then great. However, should Sansar fail for whatever reason and all we are left with is is Second Life 1.0 and even MORE of a reason for them to implement the new tax just to keep the status quo well...I live in a J. Kothari custom so at least my laggy dump will LOOK good. Hehehehe

 

I unno just seems like we are being set up for MORE disappointment. All this nerdy talk about the wonders of virtual reality AIN'T WHY I'M IN SECOND LIFE. Who cares.

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Jumpman Lane wrote:

  Ya got any vr equip collecting dust roud the crib? hehehe. You're NEW (i wont call you a noob caws that's rude and I'm NOTHING if not polite). It might help to have a lil history of SL and LL at your finger tips. Perhaps, somebody teaches a class.

 

LOL!!! That's sweet.  I knew that the cloning of myself would pay off eventually, but I had no idea how soon it would happen. I'd much rather some old, ignorant, idiot accuse me of youthful ignorance, than some new, ignorant imbecile accuse me of old, feted arrogance.  Thank you for making my day, Jumpy.

...Dres

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Jumpman Lane wrote:

I unno, I'm just a Lil' Lane; but doesn't this
whole Sansar deal seem just a little bit fishy
? .... Them server farmers aint counting on a massive influx of NERDS facinated with a marginal technology
to keep The Lab afloat
.
They are counting on MICRO-TRANSACTIONS (along with server farming-they call it The Land Business) to keep The lab in the black.

LL been around 12 YEARS grabbing a penny here and there
on every purchase and sale of currency. They shutdown the independent CURRENCY EXCHANGES to eliminate the competition. They gommed Xstreet and bought out the competition
getting pennies on every sale of goods outworld, online
. Now they
want to grab a few pennies on EVERY INWORLD sale of ANYTHING.

Don't be fooled by the idea of cheaper land either.
They'll make that up in volume by having more residents paying tier (possibly even shunting more free users into premium accounts).

I unno. Yet, if Sansar succeeds Linden Lab will have a CLEAN finger in the pie of Second Life's economy-a new revenue stream. If Sansar fails, THAT TAX will remain. T
hose pesky Lindens will STILL eat pie
...and Ebbe's sittin' pretty fulla win!  

Why do you even care how much LL earns?  Why are you counting their pennies - and that's exactly what you are doing - counting their pennies?  

Either you play SL 2.0 or don't LL will not lose sleep (or any of their pennies) if you opt out.  You, Jumpy, are NOT their (Sansar) target market.  12 years and both SL and the user base (you) are stale.  Even this OP is stale.

Dude, you need to get a third life (something LL is NOT offering) and leave the Sansar business model to LL.  

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One of the points in Sansar, that I actually like, is that everyone will be helping to pay for the service. Currently, and it has been growing recently, there is a sense of entitlement in SL. People want free stuff or they complain if the price is "too high." Used to be, a good skin was 1200L or more. Now, because of market pressures, you can get a good skin for 400L. LL sees none of that money from fransactions.

With the proposed new model, you buy something, you pay a sales tax that goes to help maintain Sansar, or whatever they end up calling it. How is that different from the sales tax you pay when you make purchases in RL; that tax money going to maintain the roads and infrastructure of the town you made the purchases in? That model will insure that all the participants in that world help pay for it rather than just the small minority that own land in SL. There are too many in SL that brag about not spending a penny inworld in SL. That won't be possible in Sansar. I suspect the incidence of freebie items will drop dramatically there.

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Bobbie I actually agree with you 100%. That's my problem with Sansar. I fear it will fail because the current "Residents" of Second Life are very different from the users 4 years ago, more so 8 years ago, much less 12 years ago. I fear that even if Linden Lab delivers on the things many in SL have been waiting years ago for, namely scalability, better rendering and etc would enough of the current "Residents" of Second Life even be interested in using it.

 

I personally don't mind the new tax as such. SL is a business and if exploring new revenue streams is a means to keep the servers up, I'm all for it. I dare say few in the history of SL have loved Second Life more than me and NONE have risked more than I have voicing my very public support of Linden Lab in the past. I've been labeled a fanboy by the now defunct Alphaville Herald, defamed in world, threatened with lawsuits and physical violence irl for opposing Eros LL vs. Linden Research. I've had very my tussles with D3adly Cod3c former leader of The PN, (safely now dead), Tizzers Foxchases flunky minions like Tux Winkler of The Woodbury/My Lil Pony Bronie/ Wrong Hand Turdmunches for the crime on merely "liking" SL. Hehehehe oh well. I DO :) So don't misunderstand me. I fully support LL.

 

My problem is what happens when/if Sansar should fail. Am I gonna be left with this money-suck tax to pay for the same ol SL 1.0 after being "dazzled" with this pie in the sky vision of virtual reality being the next best thing and lower land prices are gonna turn Tardy12345 Resident into the next Gene Replacement or Juro Kothatri or Briggi Bard?

 

The New Noobs were rezzed into a ready-made world. The visionary spirit of Philip Rosedale is over at HighFidelity. That spirit that infused the Class of 2003 and those they denoobified with the pioneer spirit that CREATED Second Life has long faded. The content creatorrs today are not World Builders they are Accessorizers

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I would have thought you'd have a figured it out by now but you see LL arn't building Sansar for us.

We be fossils to them and they'd rather we stayed out of Sansar.

Now as to how they figure on sqeezing blood out of the rocks that I don't know and at best everyone is a guessing at what they be a thinking.

Philip's original idea for SL was genius and it worked a long time.  But that was a one time brain storm.

There aint been any genius brain storms since then, just some peeps at LL trying to invent one.

But they just aint learnt.  You can't invent a brain storm.  If the lighting don't strike you ain't gonna glow in the dark.

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I'm guessing that the SL Marketplace accounts for about 15% of L.L.s revenue these days. Revenue from land is about 70% of their gross profits it would appear. Revenue from other sources make up the rest. Ideally 'sales tax' would make up a solid 80 or 90% of  L.L.'s revenue. Land costs should be about 10% of what they are now.

 

Right now it's a viscous cycle.

 

Folks don't play Second Life because they can't afford land. Won't buy rezable product because can't afford land. Doesn't purchase wearables because won't play Second Life because can't afford land.  Won't buy things because land costs eat up all their disposible income. Folks don't play Second Life because they can't afford land. Won't buy rezable product because can't afford land. Doesn't purchase wearables because won't play Second Life because can't afford land. Won't buy things because land costs eat up all their disposible income...

 

The rise of Athenian Democracy....

The fall of the Roman empire....

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Spica Inventor wrote:

I'm guessing that the SL Marketplace accounts for about 15% of L.L.s revenue these days. Revenue from land is about 70% of their gross profits it would appear. Revenue from other sources make up the rest. Ideally 'sales tax' would make up a solid 80 or 90% of  L.L.'s revenue. Land costs should be about 10% of what they are now.

.

 

The rise of Athenian Democracy....

The fall of the Roman empire....

The birth of a new nation.

I don't think the Sansar economy will 'look' anything like the current SL economy.  I think the concept of land and its use will look nothing like SL land use of today.

LL did not start SL with an economy, they more or less fell into what was being created in their world (and taxed the heck out of it).  And wow wee did it pay off for both SL and the folks that were smart enough to seize the opportunity.  

This is 2015.  We are smarter, our computers are smarter, and LL is smarter.  I wish them the best in their new venture, but it won't look and feel anything like SL, imho.  And good for them.    

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Hoshi Kenin wrote:

....somewhat akin to your 'dangerous' profile pic, then?

Which I see has cast off it's shortlived censorship and now bravely dares again.:matte-motes-silly:

Again, I've no idea what you're going on about. There is and never has been anything dangerous about my profile pic (which has never been censored and has been in place ever since I first put it there).

...Dres

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Yup, all the Linden CEO"S since Philip have been petty functionaries peddling sugar water. Sansar seems like pie in the sky at best. An excersize in shing up a turd at worst. whatever it is it aint aimed at what remains of Second Life users. The sad thing is they are flogging that cutting edge tech hyping their success in "creating" virtual worlds when the residents created it ant that pioneer spirtit is long dead. The World Building content creators are long gone. The creator class NOW are acessorizers. The visionary spirit that birthed the metaverse (sl-form) is at high fidelity. What remains is a bunch (of pesky lindens) who can monetize a bunch of server farms. Build them a world and Linden Lab can squeeze a few pennies out of it.

 

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"THIS is AMERICA. CANT AFFORD TO PAY? make more money! what are you a communist or sumfin." Thats from some movie. Reminds me of the time Torley's reponse to lag was "BUY A NEW COMPUTER."

 

If a new tax (revenue stream) would allow LL to !. Stay in business. 2. Improve the virtual world experience. I'm all for it.

Going out of the server farm business which is your bread and butter doesnt make sense to me. Banking on spurious tech few will adopt. Doesnt make sense to me. Banking on taxing an economy that doesnt exist...doesnt make sense to me.

 

Taxing SL after failed corprate misadventures in cutting edge tech. The future of Second Life

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